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VincentFirePony
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 Posted: July 27th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| GLI wrote: | | In P:AS I'm legal privateer because I'm hunting Pirates, Retros and Kilrathies only. |
"TECHNICALLY"  you're self proclaimed Privateer. I kinda hope CK implements Base Governors and Letters of Marque I spoke of in another thread today. Then we could get some REAL Privateering on! Lol
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GLI
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| Posted: July 27th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| Cthulhu wrote: | If we are to transfer people on to other ships we need to be their superior, so we need a military rang right? Like "Fleet Admiral" or something.  |
There is already proper list of military ranks for P:AS. 
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Cthulhu
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| Posted: July 28th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| VincentFirePony wrote: | | Lol well a starship might have solar sails (see: Star Wars Ep 2 or 3) |
Have you seen any suns/stars in asciisector? 
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GLI
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| Posted: July 28th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| VincentFirePony wrote: | | GLI wrote: | | Theoretically it is possible that space ships could have "sails". Hopefully P:AS hasn't such "things".. |
Lol well a starship might have solar sails (see: Star Wars Ep 2 or 3) |
I mean IRL "solar sails". Wait! Japanese already launched such ship - IKAROS. 
| VincentFirePony wrote: | | A starship still has a fore, aft, port and starboard side. |
Only in 2D game. Space is 3D (+ time as 4th dimension) so space ships has "top&bottom" too: The Enemy's Gate Is Down! 
| VincentFirePony wrote: | There is still a captain and a first mate (Number One from TNG)
I bet the Confed Navy still uses the traditional Navy rank structure. |
Like I wrote in previous post it looks like they have... 
| VincentFirePony wrote: | | GLI wrote: | | In P:AS I'm legal privateer because I'm hunting Pirates, Retros and Kilrathies only. |
"TECHNICALLY" you're self proclaimed Privateer. I kinda hope CK implements Base Governors and Letters of Marque I spoke of in another thread today. Then we could get some REAL Privateering on! Lol |
In year 2671 Terran Confederation isn't at war with any other "country" so Letter of Marque shouldn't be signed by anybody.
It is allowed to hunt, board and loot criminals (Pirates), rebels (Kilrathi) and terrorists (Retros). Isn't it "privateering"?
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GLI
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| Posted: July 28th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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[Previously on Development Updates]
| Christian Knudsen wrote: | | I've made it so that fleets will ignore single hostile ships unless they attack them or are part of another fleet. Fleets will only attack other fleets (unless provoked). This means that you'll still be able to land at pirate bases, for example, as any pirate fleets won't attack you unless you attack them. The randomly generated pirate ships will still attack you, so it'll probably be pretty much as hard/easy as it is now. |
Another thing. Since P:AS v0.7.x ships will be "persistent". Will they have persistent "memory" too?
Let's assume that I'll attack particular fleet and even destroy some of its ships and then I will escape (without destroying whole fleet). Will "fleet" remember my previous doings? Will they attack me when we'll met another time?
Maybe fleet commander could be able to send (by hire) some hunter(-s) after us? I mean ship(-s) from their faction but "outside of fleet".
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Lexus
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| Posted: July 28th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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revenge of the kilrathi fleet...
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GLI
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| Posted: July 28th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| Lexus wrote: | | revenge of the kilrathi fleet... |
"Kilrah strikes back"... no, wait! This planet was destroyed in 2669. Bad luck.
Back to serious bussiness.
If a fleet will survive an attack (our or from other fleet) will it be able to "call for reinforcement"? I mean if capital ships will survive then fleets could be able to take new ships (fighters/bombers) to their ranks. Of course, it should take some time to fully restore fleet and could depend on how many system they control.
If fleet's capship will be destroyed then remain fighters/bombers could regroup with other fleet (from the same faction).
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Bugamn
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| Posted: July 29th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| VincentFirePony wrote: | | GLI wrote: | | In P:AS I'm legal privateer because I'm hunting Pirates, Retros and Kilrathies only. |
"TECHNICALLY" you're self proclaimed Privateer. I kinda hope CK implements Base Governors and Letters of Marque I spoke of in another thread today. Then we could get some REAL Privateering on! Lol |
Are we making Christian Knuden's Privateer?
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Lexus
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| Posted: July 29th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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The Privateer 2.0
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sudo
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| Posted: July 29th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| VincentFirePony wrote: | | GLI wrote: | | In P:AS I'm legal privateer because I'm hunting Pirates, Retros and Kilrathies only. |
"TECHNICALLY" you're self proclaimed Privateer. I kinda hope CK implements Base Governors and Letters of Marque I spoke of in another thread today. Then we could get some REAL Privateering on! Lol |
I am taking over the sector so I am my own privateer! 
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GLI
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| Posted: August 11th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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[Previously on Development Updates]
| Christian Knudsen wrote: | | Fleets are made up of a hierarchy of ships, with the first ship not escorting anybody, but carrying out the fleet's order, and then every other ship in the fleet escorting/following either the first ship or one of the other escorting ships. The problem was that if one of the leading ships (a ship that has escortees) was destroyed, the escorting ships would no longer follow the fleet's order as their "link" to the first ship was destroyed. So I had to make it so that another ship would take the place of the destroyed ship and give the escorting ships a new ship to follow. |
I'm thinking how to bite hostile fleet... and to protect MY future fleet.
A -> flag ship
B+B+B+B -> "close" escort of flag ship (Alfa wing)
C -> first capital ship from escort of A
D+D+D+D+F+F+F+F -> "close" escort of first capital ship (Beta and Delta wings)
G -> second capital ship from escort of A
H+H+H+H+I+I+I+I -> "close" escort of second capital ship (Gamma and Epsilon wings)
This is "Fleet Task Group" (FTG). OK, fleet will not attack if not provoked by player but they should have some tactics not just "blood-lust/kill'em-all" like right now when attacked.
What will happen right now if any ship will be attacked by player? Everybody will attack him/her. One lone ship against whole fleet will have some big problem to destroy them all. Should all ships from the fleet break formation and attack one opponent? Slower capital ship will be left behind. What if it will be part of some ambush (e.g. player's mission from fixer)? If/when escort will be in hunt for that one opponent (player's character) then other fleet (or bunch of mercenaries) could make "quick approach" and destroy slower capital ships.
I wonder how could they react IF they will be assigned to "wings" (groups from OP)? E.g. 8 ships is 1 squadron which has two wings (Alfa, Beta). If attacked by small force (like player's single ship) only one wing should attack hostile ship (with optional medium range pursuit) and second wing should only defend in close range (fire to hostile if escortee will be hit but without chase).
What if ship from "F" wing will be attacked by player? Ships from this wing should attack such hostile but "C" with "D" escort wing are flying their way... until "F" will have some problem with elimination of a threat (to much time or some ships will be destroyed). Then sub-fleet ("C" + "D" + rest of "F") should together attack dangerous opponent. I think that sometimes (when player has capital ship like Pegasus or Nexus) whole sub-fleet could react a little faster (for bigger threat).
While sub-fleet C-D-F will be engaged in combat then A-B and G-H-I could fly slower, wait for sub-fleet or even stay close (more ships in small area means e.g. difficult maneuvers for attacker). In case when sub-fleet will be in danger (one wing destroyed +1) then another sub-fleet (G-H-I) could help. Well, they could react faster launching missiles from long range or even torpedoes. Otherwise it could look like "wolf ate sheep one by one while shepherd's dog was asleep"...
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GLI
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| Posted: August 12th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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Another idea for tactics.
If fleet will be attacked by smaller forces (e.g. player) then FTG could try to surround them:
| Code: |
B
/ \
/ P \
A - - - - - C
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A -> main fleet's capship
B, C -> sub-fleet's capships
P -> attacker (e.g. player)
Like I suggested in previous post when one ship from fleet will be attacked then they should act properly (tactics: wing -> squadron/sub-fleet -> two sub-fleets -> fleet). If one sub-fleet will be engaged in combat other two (rest of FTG) could react properly to support fighting party. In above diagram I tried to show what I mean by "surround enemy":
1) P is attacking sub-fleet B,
2) other two sub-fleets are trying to get closer from both sides to make some kind of triangle,
3) when close A+C are trying to get even closer to limit P's movement,
4) when A+C will be close enough then they could use missiles/torpedoes or even send one or two wings of fighters/bombers.
It'll be hard to break out from such trap...
OK, but what to do if attackers are equal (e.g. hostile fleet)? I propose:
1) some kind of "flanking maneuver",
| Code: |
1st stage
E-N-M
^
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B-A-C
2nd stage
E-N-M
^
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B - - - - - C
\ /
\ /
A
3rd stage
B E-N-M C
\ /
A
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2) break enemy line to split them (like during Battle of Trafalgar)
| Code: |
1st stage
E-N-M
^
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B-A-C
2nd stage
E-N-M
^
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A
/ \
B - - C
3rd stage
A
B E N M
C
4th stage like for "flanking maneuver"
A
B N M
C
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But what to do if opponent will be stronger (e.g. two joined fleets)? Hmm, maybe some "evasive maneuvers"? Retreat to vicinity of asteroid field for some "tactics advantage"? Call for back-up (one or two additional wings)?
| Cthulhu wrote: |
It would be cool if the fleets had different tactics. I remember reading about the tactics of ancient Greece (Sparta?) where the commander lined up his soldiers as:
| Code: |
Enemy Line
-------------------
-----\ /------
\----/
Greek Soldiers
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so when he moved north (up) the enemy would get trapped in the middle, and the flanks would fold around the enemy, thereby trapping them completely. (I wonder if something as advanced as this is programmable?)
I cant remember the name of the commander or the name of the battle, but it's famous. |
I don't remember it too but I think it could be Scipio Africanus (Roman). I found some nice site about Roman Empire. There are descriptions of many Roman battles with some nice pictures of "tactics" (e.g. Battle of Ilipa).
EDIT: Many years ago I played Centurion: Defender of Rome (at Abandonia). There was some tactics to use but back then I didn't know what is it for...
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Cthulhu
Ace
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| Posted: August 12th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| GLI wrote: | | Code: | B
/ \
/ P \
A - - - - - C |
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Looks like there could be some serious friendly blue-on-blue fire there, unless the AI get updated, or the base of the triangle is relatively large.
Anyways, looks like some serious coding needs to be done to implement this, I guess.
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GLI
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| Posted: August 12th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| Cthulhu wrote: | | GLI wrote: | | Code: | B
/ \
/ P \
A - - - - - C |
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Looks like there could be some serious friendly blue-on-blue fire there, unless the AI get updated, or the base of the triangle is relatively large.
Anyways, looks like some serious coding needs to be done to implement this, I guess. |
If/When "Targeting Computers" will be available then "friendly fire" shouldn't be a problem. I assume that Fleets will have "maxed" ships (e.g. fighters like these from bounty missions).
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GLI
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| Posted: August 13th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| Quote: |
A -> flag ship
B+B+B+B -> "close" escort of flag ship (Alfa wing)
C -> first capital ship from escort of A
D+D+D+D+F+F+F+F -> "close" escort of first capital ship (Beta and Delta wings)
G -> second capital ship from escort of A
H+H+H+H+I+I+I+I -> "close" escort of second capital ship (Gamma and Epsilon wings) |
I wonder how could look "perfect" Confed fleet. Let's imagine that:
A => Paradigm
B => Broadsword
C => Nexus
D => Broadsword
F => Gladius
E => ... I forgot about "E", yhyhy!
G => Pegasus
H => Gladius
I => Stiletto
A-B-C are core of a fleet (commands usually and attacks larger capital ships)
C-D-F are defenders of a fleet (don't chase usually but launch a lot of missiles/torpedoes)
G-H-I are attackers of a fleet (first to attack and to chase smaller/faster prey)
I wonder how it will look when Confed and Pirate/Retro fleet will cross their paths. Pirates/Retros without destroyer(-s) and heavy bombers doesn't have much chance to survive open battle. They need some "sabotage action" (like mission from fixer).
Kilrathi could have only one fleet that can be match to Confed's... but then again they don't have other capships than Kamekh. Kilrathi fleet with more than one Kamekh will be over powered.
Well, future factions needs new ("medium") capital ships (after "Wing Commander: Privateer" IP will be removed).
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Lexus
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| Posted: August 13th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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AhHhh! My brain is melting from all this strategy! 
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VincentFirePony
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| Posted: August 13th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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Yikes... Put a bunch of thought into this haven't you GLI?
Maybe something to keep handy for when we have fleets of our own...
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GLI
Ace
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| Posted: August 14th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| VincentFirePony wrote: | | Yikes... Put a bunch of thought into this haven't you GLI? |
... and it's just few ideas for fleets AI behavior only. I'm afraid that the game needs better "flight model AI" (e.g. for priority of flight).
| VincentFirePony wrote: | | Maybe something to keep handy for when we have fleets of our own... |
I don't know what CK want to implement but IMHO there are two solutions:
1) build fleets (more than one!) and "unleash" them to patrol/protect/fight through systems (using "general" fleets AI),
2) build fleet, be "commander" and lead them in battle.
But I think that from some point of the game player could use both methods.
For commanding fleet we need new system of "orders". Those from "wingmen" isn't enough. Example of orders:
- some "old" like for wingman (e.g. attack/(dis-)engage, protect/cover),
- patrol nav-points (select points in one system),
- patrol systems (select systems and eventually nav-point in there),
- "go to / wait here" (with selection of nav-point),
- battle tactics (sub-menu for tactics options).
I propose to add (another) new skill: "Fleet Commander" (available when fleets will be... well, available). It could increase while commanding a fleet and could give:
- new commands for "battle tactics sub-menu" (more experienced player's character means additional "advanced" maneuvers; like in "Centurion: Defender of Rome" game),
- better cooperation of ships in fleet (whatever it means...),
- possibility of "hyperspace" communication (more experienced player's character means longer range for "transsector" communication with our fleet; like in "Dune" game but this time without narcotics/melange).
Well, actually this "skill" could increase when:
- after given order fleet successfully accomplished mission (e.g. patrol); slower,
- when personally commanding during e.g. patrol; a little faster ,
- when personally commanding during battle (especially with other fleet); faster.
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GLI
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| Posted: August 14th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| Quote: | I propose to add (another) new skill: "Fleet Commander" (available when fleets will be... well, available). It could increase while commanding a fleet and could give:
- [...]
- better cooperation of ships in fleet (whatever it means...),
- [...] |
I have some idea for this. When I played "Battle Bugs" game then I saw "a commander". Such "commanding unit" was able to gave +1 to all stats of friendly units (from BB's manual: Commander - A commander gives attack and defense bonuses to friendly bugs within his command radius). Of course, it worked for units in some specific range.
Maybe "Fleet Commander" skill could work like this? I mean more experienced player's character could give better bonus IF will personally command his/her fleet.
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VincentFirePony
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| Posted: August 15th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| GLI wrote: | | Maybe "Fleet Commander" skill could work like this? I mean more experienced player's character could give better bonus IF will personally command his/her fleet. |
Another open source game I have and play occasionally Warzone 2100 has a commander unit that gives bonuses to the units it commands.
I would say you get the commander skill once you get your second ship and when you gain experience in the commander skill you can add more ships to your fleet (otherwise the extra ships might go rogue)
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GLI
Ace
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| Posted: August 15th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| VincentFirePony wrote: | | GLI wrote: | | Maybe "Fleet Commander" skill could work like this? I mean more experienced player's character could give better bonus IF will personally command his/her fleet. |
I would say you get the commander skill once you get your second ship and when you gain experience in the commander skill you can add more ships to your fleet (otherwise the extra ships might go rogue) |
I think that in this way "space-sim" will get more RPG's features than right now (and it could work because many modern games isn't "pure genre"). I mean if Charisma for above idea will be added then why not other "special" attributes.
I wonder why some other NPC should obey our orders IF not well payed (like regular wingman)? Without NPCs we can't manage more then on ship let alone fleet(-s).
If I understand correct player will be able to "have" fleet after some point of main plot:
| Christian Knudsen wrote: | 0.9
First half of the primary plot: getting involved in shady business that threatens the entire sector, while earning enough credits to finally buy your own base.
Second half of the primary plot: expanding your base, building your own fleet and taking control of the entire sector. |
Well, it was over two years ago and some things has changed (e.g. fleets for 0.7 version) but...
Right now player can't transfer "free" NPCs between ships. For some future version of the game it seams that we'll be able to capture disabled ships. Great! But why NPCs should obey our orders? I mean when they'll get "new" ship they could be able to flee/run away. Few ideas:
- player is "savior" for them (e.g. small group of pilots rescued e.g. from hands of pirates),
- player hired some "privateers" without ships (e.g. scooped ejected pilots),
- ex-military and/or ex-militia will(?) "join player",
- ex-pirates (for "villain player") will(?) "join player",
- ... and so on.
Amount of NPCs that player will be able to "hire" could depends on "Fleet Commander" skill or "Charisma" attribute... or just money.
That way or another NPCs must earn money to live so it means that player must pay them (maybe significantly less than for wingmen but still should pay them). How player will be able to do this? Missions? Tribute? Taxes?!
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GLI
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| Posted: August 22nd, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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[Previously on Development Updates]
| Christian Knudsen wrote: | | Next, I'll probably start work on the abstraction algorithms of fleet battles in systems the player isn't present in. |
Who (which fleet) should win a battle? This with more ships and/or fire power? That with better tactics?
IMHO it should depends on few elements:
1) amount of ships - e.g. 20 Talons with missiles can take out 5 Broadswords,
2) ships' classes - e.g. 10 Talons against 10 Dralthies can't stand long,
3) time reaction - who first will notice hostile fleet then first will "deploy" proper formation/tactics and will take advantage (e.g. near jump point),
4) more experienced fleet could be able to use more/better tactics variants (IMO it's better to replenish "Veteran" unit than make whole new one full of rookies; something like in "Panzer General" game),
5) luck - well, even greatest commanders had bad day and then game could "calculate" some chance/advantage (e.g. if one of equal fleets will have luck then will win; if weaker fleet will have luck then will make bigger loses/damage for hostile fleet... regardless of their defeat).
Location of battle should be important too:
- Pirates/Kilrathies could have some advantage while fighting near or inside of asteroid field,
- fleet in "home system" could have some little advantage because of reinforcements and/or "free patrols" (especially near planets and Naval Bases... or Pirate Bases).
BTW Should fleets fight to death/destruction of a last ship or maybe they could "retreat" if 30-50% of their ships will be destroyed? Shall winning fleet chase/pursue them?
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GLI
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| Posted: August 23rd, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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| Quote: | | Should fleets fight to death/destruction of a last ship or maybe they could "retreat" if 30-50% of their ships will be destroyed? Shall winning fleet chase/pursue them? |
Ha! It's a good idea for another type of hunter's missions: Remnants of hostile fleet fled to X system. Join mercs and make sure that fleet will not make problems anymore...
Isn't it the same like for "destroy capital"? Well, not exactly. There could be some variants:
1) like for "DC" - one capship and some fighters/bombers,
2) fighters/bombers only,
3) above + hostile ships have some damage,
4) above + time limit after which reinforcement will come (e.g. 10 hours for mission accomplishment but 5 only before reinforcement will come).
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GLI
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| Posted: August 26th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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[Previously on Development Updates]
| Christian Knudsen wrote: | - Factions can take control of systems by having a fleet in that system (and no other faction has a fleet there).
- Randomly generated ships in a system is partly based on the faction controlling it.
[cut]
- Information about faction control of systems in the player's Quine, as well as news updates when fleets clash and systems change hands. |
I wonder what will happen if/when player destroy hostile fleet? I mean before he/she will be able to "own" fleet:
- system will be "ownerless", neutral or previous owner will claim for it?
- how will look randomly generating of faction ships?
- what will be displayed at Quine's nav-map?
- will be some news/rumor that "The Player" defeated (alone) whole fleet?
... or maybe it'll be impossible to beat alone whole fleet? 
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Christian Knudsen
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| Posted: August 26th, 2010 Post subject: Re: Fleet tactics |
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There'll be news about the fleet being destroyed, but the system won't change control as that'll require another fleet from another faction being present in it.
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